NOT a happy Elf.

[elfie_chan]

Okay, so I'm a bit behind. I had no idea it was "Marriage Protection Week." I'm pretty sure I'm glad I didn't know, because there would probably have been some serious bile spewing off of this LJ earlier if I had. (Ewww.)

I followed this link:
National LJ Protest Week

Having read the LJ entry in question, I was immediately curious to find out what it was that our President had actually said. So, I plugged "Marriage Protection Week" into good ol' Google and came up with the actual text of Bush's proclamation. You can find that here:

Marriage Protection Week Proclamation Text

Now that you've (hopefully) read both of those, I'm sure you can see why I'm rather upset. First of all, I'm all for marriage. Heck, I am married. However, I realize that marriage is not for everyone, and that not all loving relationships involve one man and one woman. I have several friends who are gay, and while their choice (if it is a choice) is not my choice, I still love them and want them to be happy.

Bush's proclamation seems to say that marriage is sacred, which I agree with. But then he goes on to say that "Marriage is a union between a man and a woman, and my Administration is working to support the institution of marriage by helping couples build successful marriages and be good parents" (paragraph 2). If you look at this and subsequent statements, you will find that Bush connects children inextricably with marriage. Many people get married and never have children--does that make their marriages failures? No, of course not.

If I'm interpreting this right, Bush is saying that marriage is the only valid love relationship, and all other relationships are invalid and don't count. I disagree. I do not, however, believe that the Baptist church, who believe that homosexuality is a sin, should have to just ditch that belief. They have every right to believe what they do, just as I have every right to believe what I do. My belief is that everyone must make his or her own peace with God, and that's all there is to it. The government cannot legislate morality, which is why we have a separation of church and state. However, the government also has a responsibility to protect its citizens, which is why we have laws against murder and so on.

The scariest thing is that, through many of our President's actions within the past few years, I'm wondering if we're not starting to turn into Nazi Germany. This may be a bit of an exaggeration, but look at the facts. Homosexuals are being run down, declared invalid. If the proposed "anti-gay marriage amendment" (which I still have to do more research on, admittedly) passes, it will essentially be illegal to be gay. At least, that's my interpretation. If anyone wants to argue the point, I'm willing to listen.

I am just so...angry. While I am a Christian, I believe in the firm division between church and state. The church should not be able to define what the government can do, just as the government should not be able to define what the church can do privately. (I would also like to make clear that this is not a justification of hate crimes. Those hurt people.)

Marriage is about love and commitment, not putting people down because they're different. Loving people (even if that love is purely platonic) means loving them, no matter what.

This is kind of weird for me to say, as I am a Christian, and so therefore assumed to be against homosexuality altogether. In my opinion, whether I "approve" of homosexuality is not the issue. I am not homosexual, so I don't know how it feels. I don't know if it's a choice, or whether some people are born hardwired to be that way. All I know is that people are people, and my job is to love them, not judge them. As long as people aren't hurting anyone or doing anything that would cause harm or go against their own consciences, it's their affair, and they have to face their own consequences, whether they're gay or straight. What people do in their own bedrooms is, in general, none of the government's business.

I don't know if I'm articulating this quite the way I'd like to, but I guess what I really want to say is this:

Mr. Bush, would you mind staying out of the private lives of your citizens, and just go back to protecting them and their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Comments

[nursemette.livejournal.com]

I believe love is sacred and should be kept. Love between two people can't be wrong, and as long as they both want to get married, let them! Besides, it's not like anger or anything is involved, it's just something positive! Marriage is for those who have the love, commitment and loyalty, which I believe marriage is about. You don't have to have kids or anything.

The only thing I think of as sin is to purposely injure somebody mentally or physically.

My two cents.

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

My whole thing is that, whether homosexuality is a sin or not, it's not the government's job to tell us that. You can't legislate morality.

[honchi.livejournal.com]

My 2-cents, if you don't mind. ^^;

I for one believe it is, as you stated, a choice to make in anybody's lives... BUT I do not believe it is right. I personally do NOT care for or like Bush. I also believe along side with you that he shouldn't outlaw homosexual relationships. Marriages is one thing, but relationships are another. Besides, making it unlawful to chose such lifestyles isn't actually going to stop people from doing so, right? :P heh.

God gave us all a free will for a reason... to decide what we want to do in our lives. But I'm going to have to disagree with you on your comment about homosexuality being a sin. It's not just a Baptist thing either. I'm not a baptist... I just want to only follow God and the bible... and the bible clearly states in Leviticus 18:22 that:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Here's another one from Jude 1:7:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

(note: Where it says "going after strange flesh"... it is a reference to same-sex relations)

And here's another from Romans 1:26&27:

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

So going off of the bible, it clearly states that it is unbiblical as well as a sin to be homosexual. ~_~ This could be argued in many ways, but I have yet to come across something stated in the bible that approves of same-sex/homosexual marriages. I don't believe it is stated anywhere in there that it is unsinful.

But like I said, I'm not one of those people who go around and judge people. I have homosexual friends too. Heck, my supervisor/manager at work is gay. 2 of the colleagues in the same group I'm in are gay as well. (LOL! Actually, it's quite interesting that out of the 5 in my group, 2 are female and the 3 guys are all gay! ^^;) *ahem* So yeah, just stating a point.

I also firmly believe that God created TWO genders for a reason.
Not 1 or 3 or 9, but 2. I mean the way I think of it is that God could have created us A-sexual like some other species, so then that way we could do whatever. :P But He didn't! He created a man... and after that man a woman for the man's companion in life and also to create offspring. He didn't create 2 men first, then decided to make a woman, right? :\ If God didn't create man and woman to have children, then would we all still be here? It's a given fact that since we are human, we are NOT perfect... so there ARE women out there that cannot have children or refuse to have children, but that's all different from case-to-case.

Hope I didn't come off rude/rash/pompous/self-righteous/arrogant/etc, etc. ~_~ That's not what I was aiming for. I hope I don't seem like that type of person... I'm only trying to point out what I think about this. ~_~

D'oh!

[honchi.livejournal.com]

When I said "But I'm going to have to disagree with you on your comment about homosexuality being a sin." ... I MEANT to say:

"But I'm going to have to disagree with you on your comment about homosexuality ^NOT^ being a sin." ^^;

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

What I was attempting to say was that I don't know whether homosexuality is a sin or not. There are homosexual Christians who interpret the very verses you just quoted in a different way. (I will admit that I need to do more research before I decide for myself.) I just have a hard time believing that God would create people who, as far as I can tell, do appear to be hardwired to be attracted to the same gender, and then tell them that they are wrong to love who they love. It just doesn't seem right to me. If people had a choice, why would they choose to be homosexual, when most of the world hates and despises them for such a choice? This is just something I'm struggling with. It doesn't make sense. After all, I can't choose to be homosexual. I just can't. I don't find women attractive that way.

I can understand your viewpoint, though, even if we don't necessarily agree. ^_^ This is something that I just don't understand yet, and I don't know if I ever will. And no, you don't come off as "rude/rash/pompous/self-righteous/arrogant/etc. etc." I'm glad you put in your two cents...I'd rather have you disagree with me honestly than agree with me and betray your conscience. *hugs* And you make me think.

I also believe that God created two genders for a reason. I'm just not sure why some people of each gender like people of the same gender. I don't understand humans at all, at all, gay or straight.

^_^

[honchi.livejournal.com]

Totally understandable. A lot more people would side with you than with me, so I can see where you're getting at. The bible CAN be misquoted and misinterpreted, and then when others read it and agree... they follow that misconception. Just like certain Christian denominations.

It really is something you must find out between yourself and God... not what anybody else has to say. Myself included.

The thing is that I could argue out your point at how people can be hardwired to be homosexual by saying that if people are hardwired to be that way, then are people hardwired to rape somebody? To become murderers? To be pedophiles?

I personally feel they're all on the same level, and I personally feel that those are all sinful and immoral and wrong in many ways. I also believe that it's all environmental. It's something that is learned or developed ... not hardwired.

Many of the people I've come to know all of my life that have chosen to be homosexual have dealt with something traumatic in their past lives... mostly during childhood. Either by rape or molestation involving a father or uncle or priest (if a girl) or a mother or aunt or even adult "friends" (if a boy).

I knew an ex-homosexual who admitted that since he was traumatized as a child, he turned that way... and after finding God, he realized what he did was sinful. My supervisor... even though he has not openly admitted to being homosexual, it's MORE than obvious that he is. (I know there is a difference between homosexuals and guys who are just very feminine) He revealed to our group that his parents divorced when he was very young and he took that upon himself and grew up with no male influence (i.e - a father). That's the story I hear from MANY people who are homosexuals... and I can't help but see a connection somehow.

Hope I didn't come off insensitive. And I apologize once again for the lengthy post. @_@ I just have a lot to say, I guess. ~_~

Re: ^_^

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

You're not coming off as offensive, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't have a side on this issue at the moment, other than I don't believe the government has a right to say whether homosexuals are right or not. I don't see homosexuality as the same thing as rape, murder, or pedophelia. In all of those cases, the will of one person is being forced on another. The victim doesn't have a choice about what happens, and I agree that is utterly wrong.

In the case of homosexual relationships, as in the case of heterosexual relationships, both people have a choice as to their partner and so on (at least, in a perfect world). Anything sexual happens through mutual consent.

About the "past trauma" theory--that would be something I'd need to do more research on. As I said, I don't know much about the workings behind homosexuality, why some people are homosexual and some aren't, etc. I guess you could say that I'm waiting on further data...

I really appreciate you putting the Bible verses in your post, by the way. They give me a good place to begin my research. *snugs*

P.S.

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

And don't worry about your "lengthy post." Lengthy posts are what LJs are for. ^_~

Re: ^_^

[honchi.livejournal.com]

Hehe... no prob. ^^; Actually, shiranai (Adam) is the one to thank for the scripture. He's the bible scholar (sorta) here. ^^; I haven't honestly read through it and he has. o_o; I'm learning, too, by posting them and having Adam discuss them with me. ^^; Weeee... :D

Now the way you put it as far as not seeing homosexuality the same as rape, murder, or pedophelia is right. I wasn't really looking at it the way you pointed it out, so you're right. But... I still believe it's an environmental reaction, just like those 3 I listed are. :\

I'm no expert, nor some silly psychologist, so I know nuttin'. ^^; heh heh... just thinking. ^^; This sort of discussion makes me think too, y'know? I'm still open-minded to anything... I haven't made a firm decision on what I believe... I just have kinda come to that conclusion after much observation (sort of thing ^^)...

*sigh* I talk-type too much. =_= I think I tend to scare people away... that's why I always think I'm coming off pushy and whatnot. :\ As you may have noticed, I'm more quiet IRL. XD I think I may have scared Amy away, however. o_o; Maybe moving up there isn't a good idea (since I'm so pushy ^^)...?

Re: ^_^

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

*pokes* As far as I know, you did not scare Amy, nor did you scare anybody else. We're all pushy, too (at least, I am). Don't worry about it. If it's God's will, I think you two should definitely move up here.

I'm not sure about all homosexuality being an environmental reaction, though I would agree that, from the evidence, some cases are. I hesitate to make a generalization about that one.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean about the other 3 being environmental reactions. Could you define that term for me? :/

I think that, as long as conclusions are come to through thinking and research, I have no cause to complain. ^_^

Re: ^_^

[honchi.livejournal.com]

Ok... as far as murder. Think of the horrific acts of Columbine for instance. The kids who did that were teased and picked on to no end. Due to the hostility from some of the people who picked on them, it lead them to believe that they were 1) worthless and/or 2) hate all that is around them. (plus some, but I can't think this early in the morning @_@)

Due to that hate, they think of ways to either 1) kill themselves and/or 2) kill everybody who made their life miserable.

Ugh... I typed this like an hour ago, and work is getting a bit hectic right now. So gotta post this and go... @_@ Sorry. :\

Re: ^_^

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

*ponders this* I still think they had a choice. Heck, I was picked on a lot when I was a kid, especially in middle school. I don't know anyone who wasn't. I agree that some people definitely get picked on more than others, but there's always a choice there. Always.

I do agree that environmental factors have a lot to do with how someone grows up and reacts to things. However, then we have this oddness: Kip Kinkel. As far as anyone can tell, he had a great home, great parents, a good life. He did suffer from depression, but then, so do many people. Still, he chose to bring a gun to school, and then, after he was expelled and released to the custody of his parents, he chose to blow them away and then go back and kill seemingly random people at his high school. I don't understand that. I don't think I ever will. My brother lost his best friend in that school cafeteria, and I don't understand why that had to happen. I still don't think Kinkel was hardwired for murder, either, and I still think he had a choice. He just made the wrong one. Why? I don't know.

I guess what I'm saying is that not everything can be blamed on environmental factors. Environment definitely plays a part in how a person's life turns out, but it's not the only thing. A person's basic personality also helps to dictate how he/she will react to a certain situation, and I'm sure there are dozens of other factors. Humans are so complicated, it's impossible to completely explain why they do what they do. There is no easy answer.

Re: ^_^

[honchi.livejournal.com]

Ah... I see where you're going with this. You've got a point and thanks for pointing it out.

I guess to simply put it, the way I see it is that when you say "hardwired", I feel that you're basically saying that it's the way God created them to be, since (to me, anyway) God is creator of all living beings. I could be VERY wrong here with the way I am thinking... but in my opinion, I still don't think that God would create or "hardwire" somebody to be homosexual.

People have a choice to make in life. Many different influences from society and environment plays heavily on those decisions, in my humble opinion. What seems good on the outside doesn't always mean it's good on the inside.

I guess I just think of the other living beings that God has created. I don't run into many same-sex animal's having uh... well, their level of relationships (which really are just to reproduce if you think about it - not many have the same emotions we all carry as humans)... mainly because females give off certain chemicals to attract the males, as males are attracted to certain types of females due to those chemicals. There could be a chemical imbalance in some humans (as I've heard argued out) to cause them to be attracted to the same gender, but... I'm no scientist, so I don't know any of that. :\

Bleh... I better stop while I'm this far behind... ^^; Don't wanna go shoving my foot further down my throat because I honestly don't know much more than this. ^^; hehe. Like I said... this is between you and God... not something I or anybody else can persuade you to believe. I'm not here to persuade you by any means... but rather to be inquisitive, I suppose. :3 We're always learning as time goes by, ne? :D

Re: ^_^

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

*nodnods* That's exactly what I am saying. As far as I can tell, some people seem to be "hardwired" to be homosexual. If they are (and I'm not saying they are; I'm just saying they could be), then God must have made them that way. I don't know if He/She would do that or not.

I like the inquisitiveness. That's what I'm up to, too...I just want to learn what's real and what's not.

Here's another weird thing to bring up--sex is not just used for reproduction among humans. In a loving relationship, it is the reaffirmation of that love and commitment. It is an expression of love that occasionally leads to reproduction. This is part of what makes us different from animals. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but it's an odd little thought that struck me.

I agree that, in general, people make choices about how they want to live their lives. However, is homosexuality a choice? I think that's the big thing here. I just don't know. ^_^

Re: ^_^

[honchi.livejournal.com]

Well, I think homosexuality is a choice. It's just like if one choices to remain single the rest of his life, or it's just like if one choices to have multiple sex partners. Or if a man decides to have multiple wives. They're all the same in this case; they're all different types of relationships, right? *shrugs* Even as far as a woman chosing to "marry" the church and become a nun is a choice, right? :\

Yeah, I don't know either. But just as Adam just told me... there hasn't been proof that there is a "homosexual" gene. *shrugs* Or a bi-sexual one for that matter.

[saraphina-marie.livejournal.com]

About the Biblical ramifications of homosexuality...didn't Christ say (severely paraphrased) "All those Old Testament rules and regulations are bunk, one rule: live in harmony and with yourself and others, don't worry about the rest, if you all love one another you don't need all those rules."
Love is love...it sees neither gender nor race nor status nor religion.

AND besides, Bush can't push to ban gay marriage on a Biblical tenet as we are supposed to have a little thing called SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

But that's my two cents.

[elfie-chan.livejournal.com]

Mm...I think, essentially, what he was saying was that there was too much legalization when it came to the Jewish religion, and they needed to look back and realize what all those rules (including the Ten Commandments) were for in the first place. Jesus never said that the Old Testament was bunk, but he did point out that he was a symbol of a New Covenant between God and humans. (I will attempt to find that reference.) I believe the passage you're thinking of is where Jesus said (paraphrased): "The most important commandment is this: That you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. In these are all the Law and the Prophets." I've probably messed that up severely, but the basic idea is there. Jesus was essentially saying that, if people loved God and followed Him/Her, and if people truly loved one another, then they were following God's will. That was what all the rules were about in the first place. However, in Jesus' eyes, the following of God was an essential part of the whole thing.

As for Bush trying to ban gay marriages--that's what I was essentially trying to say. Regardless of what people think of homosexuality, Bush cannot ban gay marriages if he gives Biblical morality as a reason. The separation of church and state forbids it, and I'm glad.

However, if legalization of gay marriage came up on the federal ballot--who knows what would happen?

[honchi.livejournal.com]

:\ I wasn't supporting Bush... please don't make it sound like I was.

I understand what you're saying, and you're probably right. I was just stating my opinion, where your message comes off to me as rather forceful and mean... ~_~

If that what you say is true, then does that also mean that the 10 commandments are defunct? That they really shouldn't be followed? There are HUGE controversies currently regarding the 10 commandments being displayed in our court systems... and aren't court systems government related...? :\

Just something to think about... I think...